and let me give you uh um just a few
00:02
anecdotes from
00:04
you know i started teaching in 1971 and
00:07
you two weren’t very old in 71 were you
00:10
so but i i was at the urbana campus of
00:14
the university of illinois
00:16
and they cut i was in the radio and
00:19
television department within the college
00:21
of
00:22
communications and i
00:25
formed as a group that i advised called
00:28
rats radio and television students
00:32
and we were the ones protesting we got
00:35
to the president’s office and all um
00:39
yeah so uh certainly i can
00:42
you know i want to answer your questions
00:45
i will of course
00:46
but then i also think that there are a
00:48
few things that we can
00:50
um strategies beyond just
00:53
telling the university why it’s
00:55
important you know one is um
00:58
look to graduates who are in the media
01:01
get endorsements like we had gene
01:03
charlotte whom you don’t know
01:05
but he was on nbc you’re a famous guy
01:07
you know and we had a couple of others
01:09
um oh yeah who’s that movie where you
01:11
were who died you know those two guys
01:14
that did movie reviews together anyway
01:17
so we you know we got them to write
01:19
letters
01:20
we were not successful but but
01:23
draw on those graduates because the
01:27
media has a lot of influence
01:29
so i think that’s really important so no
01:32
doubt i mean you probably have specific
01:33
questions
01:36
go ahead and ask me some okay so our
01:38
first question is just kind of can you
01:40
give us a
01:41
brief rundown of your background in the
01:43
communication field
01:46
yeah sure you know long long ago
01:49
um i worked in radio and in college
01:52
i worked at the student radio station in
01:56
augustana college in rock island
01:58
small liberal arts school and um it
02:01
became an npr affiliate wbeik
02:04
i um i
02:07
went from there to wowo which is a
02:11
50 000 watt am stationed and did news
02:14
i went to graduate school then at urbana
02:17
the interversity
02:19
of illinois urbana where i
02:22
had a split appointment half time as
02:25
news producer for their public radio
02:27
station
02:28
w ilo and halftime as an instructor of
02:31
radio tv
02:33
and that was actually in 72 i think
02:37
ultimately in 75 i moved over to
02:40
full-time faculty
02:42
taught broadcast journalism journalism
02:44
for the electronic media as we called it
02:47
also taught some graduate courses you
02:50
know one
02:51
influence of broadcasting in american
02:54
society those kinds of things
02:57
and then in 77 i became i came to
03:01
the springfield campus of the university
03:03
of illinois
03:05
and i uh built a television office and
03:09
we did
03:10
public affairs and documentary videos
03:14
and distributed them through well what
03:17
film for the humanities but also uh pbs
03:20
and
03:21
we even had some uh commercial
03:23
affiliates come to town
03:24
and we would provide the staffing for
03:27
them and then
03:28
um gosh i kind of uh oh yeah and so
03:32
in uh you know i moved up the ranks full
03:35
professor and whatnot and
03:37
then i uh was asked by our
03:41
um vice president for academic affairs
03:44
for the whole u of i
03:45
system for the multiple campuses
03:48
to bring this internet to
03:52
to the faculty and that was in 97 and
03:55
and from there i i worked in developing
03:59
degrees we have
04:00
26 degrees now online totally online
04:04
we also have and half of them are
04:06
graduate half our undergrad
04:08
are baccalaureates and and then a whole
04:11
bunch of certificates and whatnot and
04:14
you know so now i’m 71 so you know
04:18
i i kind of hired a successor but but i
04:21
couldn’t quite let go
04:22
so i’m continuing as assistant
04:26
or associate vice chancellor which is
04:27
really like associated
04:29
provost at the university uh for online
04:33
and so now also halftime i work for a
04:35
national association
04:37
the university professional continuing
04:39
that association
04:41
we represent 375 universities
04:45
all of the ivy league all of the uc all
04:48
of big ten you know
04:50
very large universities but smaller
04:52
universities as well
04:53
and my job there for the last 10 years
04:57
in part has been to consult
05:00
and so i’ve consulted with 20
05:02
universities so i’ll go to ones
05:04
you know you’ve heard of like colombia
05:06
and johns hopkins
05:08
to those universities and help them with
05:11
developing and expanding their online
05:13
programs
05:14
but then i i also as
05:17
you you associated me with journalism so
05:20
perhaps
05:21
i i do a bi-weekly column in inside
05:23
higher education
05:24
and i get a lot of visibility inside
05:27
higher ed
05:28
is you know like the trade magazine that
05:31
and the chronicle
05:32
of higher ed you know people switch to
05:35
inside higher ed because the chronicle
05:37
subscriptions are pretty expensive
05:40
so uh yeah they have a circulation of
05:42
3.7 million
05:45
in a month so they’ve got you know quite
05:46
a few breeders
05:48
and so i love writing those columns
05:51
and then the feedback i get that was a
05:54
long-winded answer i’m stopping
05:56
that’s that’s where i am now i’m
05:57
installing tile
05:59
okay
06:02
thank you so much for that like i right
06:05
now
06:06
work for our student radio station and
06:08
jen has a show on our student radio
06:09
station
06:10
too wonderful wonderful yeah great place
06:13
to begin
06:13
oh man and what you’re doing in your
06:15
newspaper
06:16
wow you know that’s tremendous your
06:19
experience you’re making
06:20
the most of your career and that
06:24
that cannot be replaced in any other way
06:27
yeah so next um kind of as
06:30
working as a professor for so many years
06:33
were the
06:34
major changes that you’ve seen
06:36
specifically in the last 10 years
06:38
for um kind of programs in com
06:42
yeah so um communication
06:47
you know it used to be that we had three
06:48
tracks we had a research
06:51
you know theories and research which
06:53
frankly
06:54
just withered on the vine people don’t
06:57
want a theory
06:58
degree there’s no future then we had
07:01
radio television electronic media cable
07:04
you know all the electronic stuff which
07:06
ultimately then pulled in the internet
07:09
and delivery through electronic media
07:12
and then we have
07:13
a separate journalism program by the way
07:15
that the two of you might consider
07:17
it’s a master’s program in public
07:19
affairs reporting
07:20
and every student is guaranteed an
07:22
internship with
07:24
ap upi chicago tribune
07:27
you know we only have it’s a limited
07:29
entry program
07:30
everybody gets an internship and you get
07:32
bylines in those papers
07:34
so um but what’s happened over time
07:38
is that we’ve really shifted to the
07:40
electronic media
07:42
now certainly public relations is still
07:45
kind of on the fringe but that’s part of
07:47
it
07:48
um but uh but it is it is the internet
07:52
and how to do um effective
07:55
videos how to do campaigns how to
07:59
you know social media i mean all of
08:02
those
08:02
areas are so very important
08:05
when when you’re studying the media in
08:08
the 21st century
08:10
and and you know i i’ve written a bit
08:12
about um
08:13
in inside higher ed about how
08:16
we really need to tie ourselves to the
08:19
industry
08:20
what happens in communication is slowly
08:23
professors fall behind because
08:26
remember back in the day we used radio
08:29
we used microphone
08:30
and a little tape recorder and you know
08:33
that just doesn’t
08:34
do it you know we have to follow the
08:37
technology
08:38
and it’s changing very rapidly so i
08:40
think within all communication programs
08:43
you need to do that i used to teach a
08:45
graduate seminar in new and emerging
08:47
technologies
08:48
in the electronic media and so that
08:50
would
08:51
roll over you know every time i taught
08:53
it i’d have a whole new
08:55
uh syllabus okay
08:59
um i definitely think that’s like a
09:01
really big thing
09:02
i know our professors specifically for
09:04
our advanced news reporting class
09:06
he like worked for um the new york times
09:09
when they were developing their website
09:11
so he is very big on like making sure
09:14
that
09:16
they are like up on the newest
09:18
technologies because he’s seen it
09:20
through everything so our next question
09:24
that we have
09:25
is when you see enrollment rates kind of
09:29
drop which is one of the points our
09:31
provost made to
09:32
about why they’re doing this revamp of
09:34
the um
09:35
program is there like a specific reason
09:38
for it or is it just
09:39
kind of what happens it comes in waves
09:42
okay it’s competition so you know there
09:45
are more and more programs because
09:48
other universities with bigger budgets
09:51
have jumped in
09:52
and they have lots of marketing
09:56
now i wrote a column and i don’t have it
09:59
right in front of me
10:00
but i don’t and i don’t know but if you
10:02
look inside higher ed ray schroeder
10:04
you’ll get a list and you’ll see one
10:06
where i gave a kind of a prescription
10:09
what i think the comm program
10:11
should do if you don’t you need to have
10:13
an industry council
10:15
i mean you’re so well positioned you’re
10:16
right there new jersey new york
10:18
you know get some representatives from
10:21
the media
10:22
to advise you and give them a t-shirt or
10:26
a throw or a cap
10:27
or something but get them engaged in
10:30
what you’re doing the second thing i
10:32
would do
10:33
is invite the hr the human relations or
10:38
human resources rather directors at
10:41
the major employers and have them talk
10:45
if you have a capstone class or
10:47
something that people take
10:49
kind of in that last senior year
10:52
have them as guest speakers
10:53
electronically zoom
10:55
or whatever but and say
10:58
how do you go through those resumes and
11:00
it may be ai
11:02
they may have an algorithm that goes
11:04
through every
11:05
application and they’re looking for
11:07
certain keywords
11:08
and certain experiences like student
11:11
newspaper
11:12
like leadership editor like
11:16
radio station those are the pieces that
11:19
they probably are looking for but
11:21
you want to find out specifically
11:24
and so the the department needs to know
11:27
that
11:28
they also need to be sure to have
11:29
students on that committee
11:31
on the committee that meets with the
11:34
industry
11:35
representatives the industry council if
11:38
you will
11:38
and and you have to kind of cover the
11:41
breadth of your curriculum
11:42
because they’re the ones that are going
11:44
to give you the early warning
11:46
of what you should put in your courses
11:49
and
11:49
that question should be asked i mean
11:52
faculty have to be
11:54
open they have to be going to say hey
11:55
look at here’s my syllabus what’s wrong
11:58
with it what am i missing
12:00
and what do i need to add and in doing
12:03
so
12:04
that person and maybe that radio station
12:08
that
12:08
cable provider
12:11
the newspaper will will look favorably
12:15
upon the grants because they’re going to
12:16
expect you to know that
12:18
so there are a number of things it’s in
12:20
an article
12:22
but but what we’re seeing is
12:25
middle-sized universities
12:27
and small colleges are are getting hurt
12:30
tremendously because the big ones have
12:34
enough revenue
12:35
that they can do the marketing and they
12:39
honestly they have more campus life i i
12:41
don’t mean
12:42
camp i mean surrounding campus town if
12:45
you will
12:46
you know the you know all the things
12:48
right around the campus
12:50
so that and football and you know
12:52
everything else
12:53
so that’s what you’re fighting but i
12:55
think part of the
12:56
proposal from the comm program uh com
12:59
department could be
13:00
look at we have these graduates we have
13:03
we’re going to get representatives from
13:05
these
13:06
media outlets on an industry council
13:09
and we’re going to aggressively
13:12
determine
13:13
what we can do and then we’re going to
13:15
push it out and yeah
13:16
we don’t have 200 000 for marketing the
13:19
communication department
13:20
so we’re gonna do it on social media
13:22
we’re gonna do it in twitter
13:24
we’re gonna do it in linkedin we’re
13:26
gonna do it in facebook
13:28
we’re gonna do it in instagram we’re
13:29
gonna push these things
13:31
out so that people in the industry see
13:34
it
13:34
where we really don’t have to eat up
13:36
marketing budget money
13:39
okay that was actually very insightful
13:41
and we’ll definitely
13:42
look up that article um i just made a
13:44
note of it in our notes to make sure
13:46
that we look it up
13:47
um okay because we are a
13:50
smaller university that definitely is
13:52
part of the reason that we’re struggling
13:54
um you know something our provost said
13:57
to us is you know back in like 2008
13:59
there were like
14:00
250 com students and now we’re in a
14:02
program where there’s 40 of us
14:04
and everyone knows each other like we
14:06
have the same people in all of our
14:07
classes
14:08
and met at freshman orientation like
14:10
everyone knows
14:12
everyone so how does how does marketing
14:14
work
14:15
at farley dixon i mean
14:18
is there a central office called you
14:20
know the director of marketing or
14:21
something
14:22
um so there’s marketing specialists
14:27
and different offices throughout the
14:28
campus to like admit as a marketing
14:30
person
14:31
um the student life has a marketing
14:33
person throughout the different
14:35
offices there’s a marketing person in
14:38
each place
14:39
yeah and if i were consulting there like
14:41
i did at northwestern then you feel like
14:44
another you know look at you need to
14:46
consolidate these
14:48
and i you know i’m happy to talk to
14:50
someone by the way if you ever
14:51
have a link to someone who with whom i
14:54
could share
14:55
ideas at no charge i would be happy to
14:57
do that but
14:58
but it should be they have to be linked
15:01
together you can have multiple people
15:03
there has to be one person creating the
15:06
image to feel
15:07
the visuals they all have to
15:09
interconnect
15:10
and they have to be coordinated what i
15:12
suspect has happened is
15:15
tom historically has done well so
15:19
yeah they were down the show they were
15:20
down last year
15:22
yeah but but we’re trying to save
15:24
english
15:25
and we’re trying to save the humanities
15:27
and
15:28
um and that’s a much more difficult job
15:32
yeah so you know i think that they could
15:35
do a lot
15:35
with khan if uh if they recognize it the
15:39
other thing
15:40
is i would go to the the us department
15:42
of
15:43
labor has employment statistics
15:46
so u.s department of labor and they list
15:49
for communication fields
15:51
whether the jobs are going up or if
15:52
they’re going down which ones are going
15:54
up which ones are going down
15:56
i would have one thing just kind of an
15:59
anecdote that you
16:00
be aware of is that
16:04
the average tenure of an american worker
16:07
with an employer so let’s say you went
16:09
out and you got a job
16:11
you know across the country people old
16:13
like me and young like you
16:15
the average is only four years people
16:19
only stay with
16:20
lawyer for four years well
16:23
what happens is when you get fired or
16:26
laid off or leave
16:28
you’re going to need retraining you
16:31
could use
16:32
a farley dickinson university
16:35
certificate
16:36
in xyz new and emerging technologies new
16:40
strategies uh
16:41
strategies in the in social media
16:45
um you know the new
16:48
uh journalism um in all these topics so
16:52
that these could be short courses
16:53
let’s say three courses and it would
16:56
boost your enrollment
16:58
it might not bring in freshmen but what
17:00
we’re seeing
17:01
is and and we in the academe
17:04
say this is the 60-year learner
17:08
not that they’re 60 years old but that
17:11
they’re coming back
17:12
for 60 years every four eight years
17:15
they’re coming back to us
17:17
because they need another certificate
17:19
because artificial intelligence
17:21
has been eating away at their job by the
17:24
way do you know that
17:25
you know it’s like 20 of the news
17:27
articles written
17:28
are written by a.i and new york times
17:31
uses
17:32
particularly in sports because those are
17:34
real easy ones you know
17:35
but but they’ll use vernacular like a
17:38
four bagger
17:39
or this or that you know and so
17:42
they just have to plug the data in and
17:45
they’re not paying a reporter
17:46
to cover you know anyway so that’s a
17:50
that’s a challenge in the field
17:51
but if you understand artificial
17:54
intelligence if you take
17:56
what we call python is the programming
17:58
used
17:59
most commonly if you get a sense of that
18:02
that’s going to help you
18:04
if you have like a python one class
18:07
and you go that you can you can help
18:10
your employer move and better use
18:14
ai okay
18:20
that’s definitely something to think
18:21
about um i know that we have like looked
18:23
at the
18:24
us um for like labor statistics because
18:28
that’s definitely something that we are
18:30
planning on talking about
18:32
um our next question and this is
18:33
something we’ve like asked a lot of
18:35
experts across the board that we’ve
18:36
talked to is
18:37
what skills do you think are important
18:39
for someone who’s entering the
18:41
communications field to possess
18:44
yeah there are many and i i would do a
18:46
quick uh google search
18:48
for linkedin top 20
18:51
hard and soft skills so every year
18:54
linkedin surveys you know thousands of
18:58
companies you know how big linkedin
19:00
is and and you’ll find they list them
19:03
which include
19:05
um that you know an understanding of
19:09
social media but also its leadership its
19:12
ethics its uh um
19:15
oh gosh they’re just a whole bunch of
19:17
soft skills
19:19
that they’re looking for which
19:21
traditionally would be provided
19:23
at your university and when i went to
19:26
augustana that
19:27
that too at that college you know that
19:30
that was really emphasized
19:31
now they’re looking for you know if
19:34
you know you you’re on a mission both
19:36
you and jennifer you know
19:38
you’re doing something positive but if
19:41
you get tired and
19:42
you know look at blockchain right now
19:45
starting salary
19:47
125 000 even without a degree
19:50
if you can do blockchain development no
19:53
experience
19:54
right off the shelf you start at 125
19:58
and and we don’t start that way in most
20:01
communication fields
20:03
so you know there are those fields that
20:05
are really taking off
20:07
but lacking um that skill
20:10
if you understand the way blockchain
20:13
operates
20:14
if if you could you know i don’t know do
20:17
you have one more year in school or is
20:19
this your last yeah we both have one
20:20
more year
20:21
okay good so if you could somehow in one
20:24
of the papers
20:25
many papers that you write do something
20:28
with blockchain
20:29
and put it in an e-portfolio if you have
20:32
that formally
20:33
or if you don’t have that you know have
20:35
it in your back pocket
20:37
and say by the way you know i wrote this
20:38
about blockchain and you’re going to get
20:40
their attention
20:41
because everybody you know that’s the
20:44
you know new plastic the new whatever
20:46
it’s the technology that people um are
20:50
are using and you know that’s what uh
20:52
bitcoin and
20:53
you know the electronic uh those uh
20:55
currencies use but it’s used for far
20:57
more
20:58
ultimately your university and mine are
21:01
going to be
21:02
distributing our transcripts via
21:04
blockchain and i’ll
21:05
digress for 30 seconds to say it will
21:08
give
21:08
you control of your transcript
21:12
you will be able to add items
21:15
internships even that didn’t come from
21:18
fdu you’ll be able to add them to it
21:21
and they can’t withhold it if you
21:23
haven’t paid your parking
21:25
ticket you know they won’t have control
21:28
of it
21:28
it’ll be you who has control of it and
21:32
that will go with you as you come back
21:35
in four years and eight and twelve and
21:37
and you’ll have a very large
21:39
but a blockchain verified
21:43
transcript
21:46
that’s very interesting i didn’t even
21:48
know that that was something that was
21:50
like i wrote about that too so
21:53
you know if you and you can just skim i
21:55
think they only have the last 60 or 70
21:57
articles
21:58
but and you don’t have to you can just
22:00
do a google search
22:01
but but it is transcripts and blockchain
22:06
so one of the um other professionals
22:08
that we talked to
22:10
was barbara allen from the pointer
22:12
institute and she
22:13
like is working with um
22:16
[Music]
22:17
the pointer institute and creating like
22:20
courses for them that have to do
22:21
with higher ed and knowing how to report
22:23
on higher ed and whatnot
22:25
so i wanted to ask you she had spoken to
22:28
us about
22:30
finding a niche and she said that maybe
22:33
like some sort of higher ed course would
22:36
be something that would set
22:37
fdu apart have you seen that in any
22:39
other colleges or programs or anything
22:42
i think it’s a good idea first let me
22:44
say that
22:46
i have not seen any specialization in
22:49
higher ed
22:50
and you could do it in um you know
22:54
futures trading you could do it in any
22:56
of a
22:57
wide variety you know precious
23:00
metals pork bellies well not pork
23:03
bellies
23:03
but you could do you know any of those
23:05
kind of areas higher ed is
23:08
is in transition and you saw
23:11
and probably how possibly even wrote
23:14
about
23:15
uh community colleges that the biden
23:18
administration has
23:19
proposed to make them all free right
23:22
great idea
23:23
and so what would be useful is for
23:27
reporters to have insight and i didn’t
23:29
see much of this
23:30
that like germany has a a k-14
23:34
system where they take those two years
23:36
and they put it into
23:38
along with the high school you can still
23:41
specialize
23:42
but that means then that there will be
23:44
degree completion programs
23:46
at universities the final two years and
23:49
you get the two-year baccalaureate or
23:51
maybe a three-year
23:52
but uh you know a shorter baccalaureate
23:55
and what that means in higher ed
23:58
and what it means for uh continuing that
24:00
and professionally yeah
24:06
yeah we actually just um we started
24:09
something this semester called
24:10
daily news where we kind of try to find
24:12
something
24:13
each day that has to do with either new
24:15
jersey bergen county or just
24:17
college students in general and our
24:19
reporter writes on it in the morning
24:21
then we also have a
24:22
cobia 19 update for the county schools
24:24
and and
24:25
new jersey as a whole so people know
24:27
what’s going on with case numbers
24:29
but the article
24:32
about um the bind administration free
24:34
community college was actually just
24:36
recently done
24:38
24:42
is there anyone else that you think that
24:43
we should talk to about
24:45
this
24:48
um i’m thinking
24:59
i mean there are some people in
25:00
associations
25:02
uh you know your east coast i’d say
25:05
um maybe
25:10
julie uranus like the planet
25:14
j-u-l-i-e uranus u-r-a-n-i-s
25:18
and so her email is j
25:21
uranus at u-p-c-e-a-dot-edu
25:27
and she has worked at
25:30
several universities she’s our vice
25:33
president
25:34
i mean you know they’re people in um
25:37
other
25:37
associations but she would be one who’d
25:40
have a lot of enthusiasm you’ll see when
25:43
you talk to her
25:44
and uh and energy and
25:48
an empathy for what’s going on now
25:52
um you know i think
25:58
others in communication
26:02
and and you can look up julie you know
26:04
linkedin is a tool i use often so
26:06
look her up you know and you’ll get more
26:09
of a bio i think she was at
26:11
central michigan she’ll see it western
26:13
kentucky and
26:14
and maybe another school and then came
26:18
uh originally from michigan
26:22
um
26:24
yeah who’s our problem she’s probably
26:27
the best choice she may have other
26:29
choices um
26:31
you know other people too so it’s good
26:33
that you’re following this chain of
26:35
of connections i think that there’s
26:39
much you can do i think that the media
26:42
wields a lot of power the social media
26:45
wields
26:46
a lot of power so if you can get someone
26:50
in instagram facebook or in
26:54
one of the others to say that they’ll
26:57
you know serve on your virtual board
27:00
that would be really good
27:02
and the president
27:05
and or vice president or provost or
27:08
whomever dean will oh yeah well
27:13
we better not look too bad you know to
27:16
them so we ought to look like
27:18
we’re trying to save the program and not
27:21
kill the program um i think it’s
27:24
the future there are you know when you
27:27
think of other
27:28
fields put aside
27:31
computer science um and
27:34
you know the uh as a like fields putting
27:37
that aside
27:38
communication is just critical it is the
27:41
field that will
27:43
uh that will lead the rest so
27:46
you know and i think having an industry
27:49
council
27:50
and then strategically having
27:54
making sure the upper administration
27:58
comes to that board meeting they’ll want
28:00
to because these
28:02
are going to be influential people i
28:04
think
28:05
i think that’s important and they will
28:07
you know they’re savvy i mean these
28:09
folks know what they’re doing
28:10
and they’ll say well you know you can do
28:12
some public service are done we’ll run
28:14
them
28:14
you know we’ll run these we’ll make sure
28:16
they get out and we’ll put them in the
28:18
paper we’ll give you
28:20
you know three inches or whatever
28:23
you know we’ll give you a few inches for
28:24
a little display ad
28:27
about con not just about fdu
28:30
but specifically about your future
28:34
the future of the world is in
28:35
communication you know we learned that
28:38
i mean you could do wonderful things on
28:40
this we learned it in covid we learned
28:42
it’s all about that’s where we’re in a
28:45
crisis that will continue for years
28:47
beyond the virus
28:49
will be the mental health ramifications
28:52
that have the damage that has been done
28:55
by
28:56
limiting communication interpersonal
28:59
communication
29:01
so you know i mean there’s so many
29:03
things you can use
29:04
and your faculty member can use and you
29:07
know again if i can
29:09
help let me know and i’d be happy to
29:11
talk to other people when you get to
29:13
that point
29:14
you know after your report has been
29:16
submitted and
29:17
you you could put me in a list of people
29:20
willing
29:21
to uh to help out if we
29:25
would be great thank you so much for
29:27
your time today um
29:29
we are going to be publishing this the
29:32
week of may 10th
29:33
on our website but i’ll send the links
29:35
to the articles whenever they’re up
29:37
um as i would everyone that we’ve talked
29:39
to but
29:40
thank you so much um we really
29:42
appreciate it
29:43
we know that everyone is so busy and
29:45
coveted like
29:47
zoom has made things a little bit easier
29:49
with getting to talk to people but
29:51
people are very busy so we do appreciate
29:53
it yes well thank you so much
29:56
thank you so much jennifer it’s good to
29:58
see you andy hear from you
30:00
and good luck to both you ellie and
30:02
jennifer
30:04
all right all right take care
30:07
bye
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