#savecomm

Ray Schroeder Interview Transcript

and let me give you uh um just a few

00:02

anecdotes from

00:04

you know i started teaching in 1971 and

00:07

you two weren’t very old in 71 were you

00:10

so but i i was at the urbana campus of

00:14

the university of illinois

00:16

and they cut i was in the radio and

00:19

television department within the college

00:21

of

00:22

communications and i

00:25

formed as a group that i advised called

00:28

rats radio and television students

00:32

and we were the ones protesting we got

00:35

to the president’s office and all um

00:39

yeah so uh certainly i can

00:42

you know i want to answer your questions

00:45

i will of course

00:46

but then i also think that there are a

00:48

few things that we can

00:50

um strategies beyond just

00:53

telling the university why it’s

00:55

important you know one is um

00:58

look to graduates who are in the media

01:01

get endorsements like we had gene

01:03

charlotte whom you don’t know

01:05

but he was on nbc you’re a famous guy

01:07

you know and we had a couple of others

01:09

um oh yeah who’s that movie where you

01:11

were who died you know those two guys

01:14

that did movie reviews together anyway

01:17

so we you know we got them to write

01:19

letters

01:20

we were not successful but but

01:23

draw on those graduates because the

01:27

media has a lot of influence

01:29

so i think that’s really important so no

01:32

doubt i mean you probably have specific

01:33

questions

01:36

go ahead and ask me some okay so our

01:38

first question is just kind of can you

01:40

give us a

01:41

brief rundown of your background in the

01:43

communication field

01:46

yeah sure you know long long ago

01:49

um i worked in radio and in college

01:52

i worked at the student radio station in

01:56

augustana college in rock island

01:58

small liberal arts school and um it

02:01

became an npr affiliate wbeik

02:04

i um i

02:07

went from there to wowo which is a

02:11

50 000 watt am stationed and did news

02:14

i went to graduate school then at urbana

02:17

the interversity

02:19

of illinois urbana where i

02:22

had a split appointment half time as

02:25

news producer for their public radio

02:27

station

02:28

w ilo and halftime as an instructor of

02:31

radio tv

02:33

and that was actually in 72 i think

02:37

ultimately in 75 i moved over to

02:40

full-time faculty

02:42

taught broadcast journalism journalism

02:44

for the electronic media as we called it

02:47

also taught some graduate courses you

02:50

know one

02:51

influence of broadcasting in american

02:54

society those kinds of things

02:57

and then in 77 i became i came to

03:01

the springfield campus of the university

03:03

of illinois

03:05

and i uh built a television office and

03:09

we did

03:10

public affairs and documentary videos

03:14

and distributed them through well what

03:17

film for the humanities but also uh pbs

03:20

and

03:21

we even had some uh commercial

03:23

affiliates come to town

03:24

and we would provide the staffing for

03:27

them and then

03:28

um gosh i kind of uh oh yeah and so

03:32

in uh you know i moved up the ranks full

03:35

professor and whatnot and

03:37

then i uh was asked by our

03:41

um vice president for academic affairs

03:44

for the whole u of i

03:45

system for the multiple campuses

03:48

to bring this internet to

03:52

to the faculty and that was in 97 and

03:55

and from there i i worked in developing

03:59

degrees we have

04:00

26 degrees now online totally online

04:04

we also have and half of them are

04:06

graduate half our undergrad

04:08

are baccalaureates and and then a whole

04:11

bunch of certificates and whatnot and

04:14

you know so now i’m 71 so you know

04:18

i i kind of hired a successor but but i

04:21

couldn’t quite let go

04:22

so i’m continuing as assistant

04:26

or associate vice chancellor which is

04:27

really like associated

04:29

provost at the university uh for online

04:33

and so now also halftime i work for a

04:35

national association

04:37

the university professional continuing

04:39

that association

04:41

we represent 375 universities

04:45

all of the ivy league all of the uc all

04:48

of big ten you know

04:50

very large universities but smaller

04:52

universities as well

04:53

and my job there for the last 10 years

04:57

in part has been to consult

05:00

and so i’ve consulted with 20

05:02

universities so i’ll go to ones

05:04

you know you’ve heard of like colombia

05:06

and johns hopkins

05:08

to those universities and help them with

05:11

developing and expanding their online

05:13

programs

05:14

but then i i also as

05:17

you you associated me with journalism so

05:20

perhaps

05:21

i i do a bi-weekly column in inside

05:23

higher education

05:24

and i get a lot of visibility inside

05:27

higher ed

05:28

is you know like the trade magazine that

05:31

and the chronicle

05:32

of higher ed you know people switch to

05:35

inside higher ed because the chronicle

05:37

subscriptions are pretty expensive

05:40

so uh yeah they have a circulation of

05:42

3.7 million

05:45

in a month so they’ve got you know quite

05:46

a few breeders

05:48

and so i love writing those columns

05:51

and then the feedback i get that was a

05:54

long-winded answer i’m stopping

05:56

that’s that’s where i am now i’m

05:57

installing tile

05:59

okay

06:02

thank you so much for that like i right

06:05

now

06:06

work for our student radio station and

06:08

jen has a show on our student radio

06:09

station

06:10

too wonderful wonderful yeah great place

06:13

to begin

06:13

oh man and what you’re doing in your

06:15

newspaper

06:16

wow you know that’s tremendous your

06:19

experience you’re making

06:20

the most of your career and that

06:24

that cannot be replaced in any other way

06:27

yeah so next um kind of as

06:30

working as a professor for so many years

06:33

were the

06:34

major changes that you’ve seen

06:36

specifically in the last 10 years

06:38

for um kind of programs in com

06:42

yeah so um communication

06:47

you know it used to be that we had three

06:48

tracks we had a research

06:51

you know theories and research which

06:53

frankly

06:54

just withered on the vine people don’t

06:57

want a theory

06:58

degree there’s no future then we had

07:01

radio television electronic media cable

07:04

you know all the electronic stuff which

07:06

ultimately then pulled in the internet

07:09

and delivery through electronic media

07:12

and then we have

07:13

a separate journalism program by the way

07:15

that the two of you might consider

07:17

it’s a master’s program in public

07:19

affairs reporting

07:20

and every student is guaranteed an

07:22

internship with

07:24

ap upi chicago tribune

07:27

you know we only have it’s a limited

07:29

entry program

07:30

everybody gets an internship and you get

07:32

bylines in those papers

07:34

so um but what’s happened over time

07:38

is that we’ve really shifted to the

07:40

electronic media

07:42

now certainly public relations is still

07:45

kind of on the fringe but that’s part of

07:47

it

07:48

um but uh but it is it is the internet

07:52

and how to do um effective

07:55

videos how to do campaigns how to

07:59

you know social media i mean all of

08:02

those

08:02

areas are so very important

08:05

when when you’re studying the media in

08:08

the 21st century

08:10

and and you know i i’ve written a bit

08:12

about um

08:13

in inside higher ed about how

08:16

we really need to tie ourselves to the

08:19

industry

08:20

what happens in communication is slowly

08:23

professors fall behind because

08:26

remember back in the day we used radio

08:29

we used microphone

08:30

and a little tape recorder and you know

08:33

that just doesn’t

08:34

do it you know we have to follow the

08:37

technology

08:38

and it’s changing very rapidly so i

08:40

think within all communication programs

08:43

you need to do that i used to teach a

08:45

graduate seminar in new and emerging

08:47

technologies

08:48

in the electronic media and so that

08:50

would

08:51

roll over you know every time i taught

08:53

it i’d have a whole new

08:55

uh syllabus okay

08:59

um i definitely think that’s like a

09:01

really big thing

09:02

i know our professors specifically for

09:04

our advanced news reporting class

09:06

he like worked for um the new york times

09:09

when they were developing their website

09:11

so he is very big on like making sure

09:14

that

09:16

they are like up on the newest

09:18

technologies because he’s seen it

09:20

through everything so our next question

09:24

that we have

09:25

is when you see enrollment rates kind of

09:29

drop which is one of the points our

09:31

provost made to

09:32

about why they’re doing this revamp of

09:34

the um

09:35

program is there like a specific reason

09:38

for it or is it just

09:39

kind of what happens it comes in waves

09:42

okay it’s competition so you know there

09:45

are more and more programs because

09:48

other universities with bigger budgets

09:51

have jumped in

09:52

and they have lots of marketing

09:56

now i wrote a column and i don’t have it

09:59

right in front of me

10:00

but i don’t and i don’t know but if you

10:02

look inside higher ed ray schroeder

10:04

you’ll get a list and you’ll see one

10:06

where i gave a kind of a prescription

10:09

what i think the comm program

10:11

should do if you don’t you need to have

10:13

an industry council

10:15

i mean you’re so well positioned you’re

10:16

right there new jersey new york

10:18

you know get some representatives from

10:21

the media

10:22

to advise you and give them a t-shirt or

10:26

a throw or a cap

10:27

or something but get them engaged in

10:30

what you’re doing the second thing i

10:32

would do

10:33

is invite the hr the human relations or

10:38

human resources rather directors at

10:41

the major employers and have them talk

10:45

if you have a capstone class or

10:47

something that people take

10:49

kind of in that last senior year

10:52

have them as guest speakers

10:53

electronically zoom

10:55

or whatever but and say

10:58

how do you go through those resumes and

11:00

it may be ai

11:02

they may have an algorithm that goes

11:04

through every

11:05

application and they’re looking for

11:07

certain keywords

11:08

and certain experiences like student

11:11

newspaper

11:12

like leadership editor like

11:16

radio station those are the pieces that

11:19

they probably are looking for but

11:21

you want to find out specifically

11:24

and so the the department needs to know

11:27

that

11:28

they also need to be sure to have

11:29

students on that committee

11:31

on the committee that meets with the

11:34

industry

11:35

representatives the industry council if

11:38

you will

11:38

and and you have to kind of cover the

11:41

breadth of your curriculum

11:42

because they’re the ones that are going

11:44

to give you the early warning

11:46

of what you should put in your courses

11:49

and

11:49

that question should be asked i mean

11:52

faculty have to be

11:54

open they have to be going to say hey

11:55

look at here’s my syllabus what’s wrong

11:58

with it what am i missing

12:00

and what do i need to add and in doing

12:03

so

12:04

that person and maybe that radio station

12:08

that

12:08

cable provider

12:11

the newspaper will will look favorably

12:15

upon the grants because they’re going to

12:16

expect you to know that

12:18

so there are a number of things it’s in

12:20

an article

12:22

but but what we’re seeing is

12:25

middle-sized universities

12:27

and small colleges are are getting hurt

12:30

tremendously because the big ones have

12:34

enough revenue

12:35

that they can do the marketing and they

12:39

honestly they have more campus life i i

12:41

don’t mean

12:42

camp i mean surrounding campus town if

12:45

you will

12:46

you know the you know all the things

12:48

right around the campus

12:50

so that and football and you know

12:52

everything else

12:53

so that’s what you’re fighting but i

12:55

think part of the

12:56

proposal from the comm program uh com

12:59

department could be

13:00

look at we have these graduates we have

13:03

we’re going to get representatives from

13:05

these

13:06

media outlets on an industry council

13:09

and we’re going to aggressively

13:12

determine

13:13

what we can do and then we’re going to

13:15

push it out and yeah

13:16

we don’t have 200 000 for marketing the

13:19

communication department

13:20

so we’re gonna do it on social media

13:22

we’re gonna do it in twitter

13:24

we’re gonna do it in linkedin we’re

13:26

gonna do it in facebook

13:28

we’re gonna do it in instagram we’re

13:29

gonna push these things

13:31

out so that people in the industry see

13:34

it

13:34

where we really don’t have to eat up

13:36

marketing budget money

13:39

okay that was actually very insightful

13:41

and we’ll definitely

13:42

look up that article um i just made a

13:44

note of it in our notes to make sure

13:46

that we look it up

13:47

um okay because we are a

13:50

smaller university that definitely is

13:52

part of the reason that we’re struggling

13:54

um you know something our provost said

13:57

to us is you know back in like 2008

13:59

there were like

14:00

250 com students and now we’re in a

14:02

program where there’s 40 of us

14:04

and everyone knows each other like we

14:06

have the same people in all of our

14:07

classes

14:08

and met at freshman orientation like

14:10

everyone knows

14:12

everyone so how does how does marketing

14:14

work

14:15

at farley dixon i mean

14:18

is there a central office called you

14:20

know the director of marketing or

14:21

something

14:22

um so there’s marketing specialists

14:27

and different offices throughout the

14:28

campus to like admit as a marketing

14:30

person

14:31

um the student life has a marketing

14:33

person throughout the different

14:35

offices there’s a marketing person in

14:38

each place

14:39

yeah and if i were consulting there like

14:41

i did at northwestern then you feel like

14:44

another you know look at you need to

14:46

consolidate these

14:48

and i you know i’m happy to talk to

14:50

someone by the way if you ever

14:51

have a link to someone who with whom i

14:54

could share

14:55

ideas at no charge i would be happy to

14:57

do that but

14:58

but it should be they have to be linked

15:01

together you can have multiple people

15:03

there has to be one person creating the

15:06

image to feel

15:07

the visuals they all have to

15:09

interconnect

15:10

and they have to be coordinated what i

15:12

suspect has happened is

15:15

tom historically has done well so

15:19

yeah they were down the show they were

15:20

down last year

15:22

yeah but but we’re trying to save

15:24

english

15:25

and we’re trying to save the humanities

15:27

and

15:28

um and that’s a much more difficult job

15:32

yeah so you know i think that they could

15:35

do a lot

15:35

with khan if uh if they recognize it the

15:39

other thing

15:40

is i would go to the the us department

15:42

of

15:43

labor has employment statistics

15:46

so u.s department of labor and they list

15:49

for communication fields

15:51

whether the jobs are going up or if

15:52

they’re going down which ones are going

15:54

up which ones are going down

15:56

i would have one thing just kind of an

15:59

anecdote that you

16:00

be aware of is that

16:04

the average tenure of an american worker

16:07

with an employer so let’s say you went

16:09

out and you got a job

16:11

you know across the country people old

16:13

like me and young like you

16:15

the average is only four years people

16:19

only stay with

16:20

lawyer for four years well

16:23

what happens is when you get fired or

16:26

laid off or leave

16:28

you’re going to need retraining you

16:31

could use

16:32

a farley dickinson university

16:35

certificate

16:36

in xyz new and emerging technologies new

16:40

strategies uh

16:41

strategies in the in social media

16:45

um you know the new

16:48

uh journalism um in all these topics so

16:52

that these could be short courses

16:53

let’s say three courses and it would

16:56

boost your enrollment

16:58

it might not bring in freshmen but what

17:00

we’re seeing

17:01

is and and we in the academe

17:04

say this is the 60-year learner

17:08

not that they’re 60 years old but that

17:11

they’re coming back

17:12

for 60 years every four eight years

17:15

they’re coming back to us

17:17

because they need another certificate

17:19

because artificial intelligence

17:21

has been eating away at their job by the

17:24

way do you know that

17:25

you know it’s like 20 of the news

17:27

articles written

17:28

are written by a.i and new york times

17:31

uses

17:32

particularly in sports because those are

17:34

real easy ones you know

17:35

but but they’ll use vernacular like a

17:38

four bagger

17:39

or this or that you know and so

17:42

they just have to plug the data in and

17:45

they’re not paying a reporter

17:46

to cover you know anyway so that’s a

17:50

that’s a challenge in the field

17:51

but if you understand artificial

17:54

intelligence if you take

17:56

what we call python is the programming

17:58

used

17:59

most commonly if you get a sense of that

18:02

that’s going to help you

18:04

if you have like a python one class

18:07

and you go that you can you can help

18:10

your employer move and better use

18:14

ai okay

18:20

that’s definitely something to think

18:21

about um i know that we have like looked

18:23

at the

18:24

us um for like labor statistics because

18:28

that’s definitely something that we are

18:30

planning on talking about

18:32

um our next question and this is

18:33

something we’ve like asked a lot of

18:35

experts across the board that we’ve

18:36

talked to is

18:37

what skills do you think are important

18:39

for someone who’s entering the

18:41

communications field to possess

18:44

yeah there are many and i i would do a

18:46

quick uh google search

18:48

for linkedin top 20

18:51

hard and soft skills so every year

18:54

linkedin surveys you know thousands of

18:58

companies you know how big linkedin

19:00

is and and you’ll find they list them

19:03

which include

19:05

um that you know an understanding of

19:09

social media but also its leadership its

19:12

ethics its uh um

19:15

oh gosh they’re just a whole bunch of

19:17

soft skills

19:19

that they’re looking for which

19:21

traditionally would be provided

19:23

at your university and when i went to

19:26

augustana that

19:27

that too at that college you know that

19:30

that was really emphasized

19:31

now they’re looking for you know if

19:34

you know you you’re on a mission both

19:36

you and jennifer you know

19:38

you’re doing something positive but if

19:41

you get tired and

19:42

you know look at blockchain right now

19:45

starting salary

19:47

125 000 even without a degree

19:50

if you can do blockchain development no

19:53

experience

19:54

right off the shelf you start at 125

19:58

and and we don’t start that way in most

20:01

communication fields

20:03

so you know there are those fields that

20:05

are really taking off

20:07

but lacking um that skill

20:10

if you understand the way blockchain

20:13

operates

20:14

if if you could you know i don’t know do

20:17

you have one more year in school or is

20:19

this your last yeah we both have one

20:20

more year

20:21

okay good so if you could somehow in one

20:24

of the papers

20:25

many papers that you write do something

20:28

with blockchain

20:29

and put it in an e-portfolio if you have

20:32

that formally

20:33

or if you don’t have that you know have

20:35

it in your back pocket

20:37

and say by the way you know i wrote this

20:38

about blockchain and you’re going to get

20:40

their attention

20:41

because everybody you know that’s the

20:44

you know new plastic the new whatever

20:46

it’s the technology that people um are

20:50

are using and you know that’s what uh

20:52

bitcoin and

20:53

you know the electronic uh those uh

20:55

currencies use but it’s used for far

20:57

more

20:58

ultimately your university and mine are

21:01

going to be

21:02

distributing our transcripts via

21:04

blockchain and i’ll

21:05

digress for 30 seconds to say it will

21:08

give

21:08

you control of your transcript

21:12

you will be able to add items

21:15

internships even that didn’t come from

21:18

fdu you’ll be able to add them to it

21:21

and they can’t withhold it if you

21:23

haven’t paid your parking

21:25

ticket you know they won’t have control

21:28

of it

21:28

it’ll be you who has control of it and

21:32

that will go with you as you come back

21:35

in four years and eight and twelve and

21:37

and you’ll have a very large

21:39

but a blockchain verified

21:43

transcript

21:46

that’s very interesting i didn’t even

21:48

know that that was something that was

21:50

like i wrote about that too so

21:53

you know if you and you can just skim i

21:55

think they only have the last 60 or 70

21:57

articles

21:58

but and you don’t have to you can just

22:00

do a google search

22:01

but but it is transcripts and blockchain

22:06

so one of the um other professionals

22:08

that we talked to

22:10

was barbara allen from the pointer

22:12

institute and she

22:13

like is working with um

22:16

[Music]

22:17

the pointer institute and creating like

22:20

courses for them that have to do

22:21

with higher ed and knowing how to report

22:23

on higher ed and whatnot

22:25

so i wanted to ask you she had spoken to

22:28

us about

22:30

finding a niche and she said that maybe

22:33

like some sort of higher ed course would

22:36

be something that would set

22:37

fdu apart have you seen that in any

22:39

other colleges or programs or anything

22:42

i think it’s a good idea first let me

22:44

say that

22:46

i have not seen any specialization in

22:49

higher ed

22:50

and you could do it in um you know

22:54

futures trading you could do it in any

22:56

of a

22:57

wide variety you know precious

23:00

metals pork bellies well not pork

23:03

bellies

23:03

but you could do you know any of those

23:05

kind of areas higher ed is

23:08

is in transition and you saw

23:11

and probably how possibly even wrote

23:14

about

23:15

uh community colleges that the biden

23:18

administration has

23:19

proposed to make them all free right

23:22

great idea

23:23

and so what would be useful is for

23:27

reporters to have insight and i didn’t

23:29

see much of this

23:30

that like germany has a a k-14

23:34

system where they take those two years

23:36

and they put it into

23:38

along with the high school you can still

23:41

specialize

23:42

but that means then that there will be

23:44

degree completion programs

23:46

at universities the final two years and

23:49

you get the two-year baccalaureate or

23:51

maybe a three-year

23:52

but uh you know a shorter baccalaureate

23:55

and what that means in higher ed

23:58

and what it means for uh continuing that

24:00

and professionally yeah

24:06

yeah we actually just um we started

24:09

something this semester called

24:10

daily news where we kind of try to find

24:12

something

24:13

each day that has to do with either new

24:15

jersey bergen county or just

24:17

college students in general and our

24:19

reporter writes on it in the morning

24:21

then we also have a

24:22

cobia 19 update for the county schools

24:24

and and

24:25

new jersey as a whole so people know

24:27

what’s going on with case numbers

24:29

but the article

24:32

about um the bind administration free

24:34

community college was actually just

24:36

recently done

24:38

24:42

is there anyone else that you think that

24:43

we should talk to about

24:45

this

24:48

um i’m thinking

24:59

i mean there are some people in

25:00

associations

25:02

uh you know your east coast i’d say

25:05

um maybe

25:10

julie uranus like the planet

25:14

j-u-l-i-e uranus u-r-a-n-i-s

25:18

and so her email is j

25:21

uranus at u-p-c-e-a-dot-edu

25:27

and she has worked at

25:30

several universities she’s our vice

25:33

president

25:34

i mean you know they’re people in um

25:37

other

25:37

associations but she would be one who’d

25:40

have a lot of enthusiasm you’ll see when

25:43

you talk to her

25:44

and uh and energy and

25:48

an empathy for what’s going on now

25:52

um you know i think

25:58

others in communication

26:02

and and you can look up julie you know

26:04

linkedin is a tool i use often so

26:06

look her up you know and you’ll get more

26:09

of a bio i think she was at

26:11

central michigan she’ll see it western

26:13

kentucky and

26:14

and maybe another school and then came

26:18

uh originally from michigan

26:22

um

26:24

yeah who’s our problem she’s probably

26:27

the best choice she may have other

26:29

choices um

26:31

you know other people too so it’s good

26:33

that you’re following this chain of

26:35

of connections i think that there’s

26:39

much you can do i think that the media

26:42

wields a lot of power the social media

26:45

wields

26:46

a lot of power so if you can get someone

26:50

in instagram facebook or in

26:54

one of the others to say that they’ll

26:57

you know serve on your virtual board

27:00

that would be really good

27:02

and the president

27:05

and or vice president or provost or

27:08

whomever dean will oh yeah well

27:13

we better not look too bad you know to

27:16

them so we ought to look like

27:18

we’re trying to save the program and not

27:21

kill the program um i think it’s

27:24

the future there are you know when you

27:27

think of other

27:28

fields put aside

27:31

computer science um and

27:34

you know the uh as a like fields putting

27:37

that aside

27:38

communication is just critical it is the

27:41

field that will

27:43

uh that will lead the rest so

27:46

you know and i think having an industry

27:49

council

27:50

and then strategically having

27:54

making sure the upper administration

27:58

comes to that board meeting they’ll want

28:00

to because these

28:02

are going to be influential people i

28:04

think

28:05

i think that’s important and they will

28:07

you know they’re savvy i mean these

28:09

folks know what they’re doing

28:10

and they’ll say well you know you can do

28:12

some public service are done we’ll run

28:14

them

28:14

you know we’ll run these we’ll make sure

28:16

they get out and we’ll put them in the

28:18

paper we’ll give you

28:20

you know three inches or whatever

28:23

you know we’ll give you a few inches for

28:24

a little display ad

28:27

about con not just about fdu

28:30

but specifically about your future

28:34

the future of the world is in

28:35

communication you know we learned that

28:38

i mean you could do wonderful things on

28:40

this we learned it in covid we learned

28:42

it’s all about that’s where we’re in a

28:45

crisis that will continue for years

28:47

beyond the virus

28:49

will be the mental health ramifications

28:52

that have the damage that has been done

28:55

by

28:56

limiting communication interpersonal

28:59

communication

29:01

so you know i mean there’s so many

29:03

things you can use

29:04

and your faculty member can use and you

29:07

know again if i can

29:09

help let me know and i’d be happy to

29:11

talk to other people when you get to

29:13

that point

29:14

you know after your report has been

29:16

submitted and

29:17

you you could put me in a list of people

29:20

willing

29:21

to uh to help out if we

29:25

would be great thank you so much for

29:27

your time today um

29:29

we are going to be publishing this the

29:32

week of may 10th

29:33

on our website but i’ll send the links

29:35

to the articles whenever they’re up

29:37

um as i would everyone that we’ve talked

29:39

to but

29:40

thank you so much um we really

29:42

appreciate it

29:43

we know that everyone is so busy and

29:45

coveted like

29:47

zoom has made things a little bit easier

29:49

with getting to talk to people but

29:51

people are very busy so we do appreciate

29:53

it yes well thank you so much

29:56

thank you so much jennifer it’s good to

29:58

see you andy hear from you

30:00

and good luck to both you ellie and

30:02

jennifer

30:04

all right all right take care

30:07

bye

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